Anniversary Event: Clarification

Richter · Sun, February 07, 2010, 09:18 PM

Nobody seems quite sure how the Sharp/Ancient/Righteous weapon upgrades would work. Lots of guesses/theories, but no certainty. Can you clear it up for us?

Avour · Sun, February 07, 2010, 11:35 PM

They have a hidden stat that's not displayed. On ancient weapons it shows by it's endurance. The damage is slightly increased with each additional upgrade.

Richter · Mon, February 08, 2010, 12:30 AM

I still don't get it. What are the hidden stats? What are they initially, and how do they affect to the weapon?

Is the hidden stat on Righteous the +10 (meaning 10 bonus damage against players with bad rep)?
Is the hidden stat on Sharp the +1 (meaning 1 extra face per die)?
Is the hidden stat on Ancient the +2 (meaning 2 extra face per die)?

Sorry to badger you, but before someone can decide if it's worth it to spend 35+ hours doing quests to upgrade a weapon, they really need to know what they'll actually be getting.

(FWIW... Ancient weapons vary in endurance, in multiples of 7%. If a weapon normally has 1000 endurance (i.e, from the blacksmith), the Ancient version would have 1070, 1140, 1210, etc.. endurance. This added endurance has no affect on the damage. Every no-stat ancient flam would do the same damage, no matter how much they varied in endurance.)

Apoptygma · Mon, February 08, 2010, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Richter

This added endurance has no affect on the damage. Every no-stat ancient flam would do the same damage, no matter how much they varied in endurance.

not true at all

Logicarn · Mon, February 08, 2010, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Apoptygma

not true at all

Care to explain?

Richter · Mon, February 08, 2010, 09:09 AM

Yes, I'm VERY curious to hear. I've done quite a bit of testing and I really have no doubts about it. But again, I'm more than willing to test WITH someone so they can verify the results.

Sundrop · Mon, February 08, 2010, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Richter

I still don't get it. What are the hidden stats? What are they initially, and how do they affect to the weapon?

Is the hidden stat on Righteous the +10 (meaning 10 bonus damage against players with bad rep)?
Is the hidden stat on Sharp the +1 (meaning 1 extra face per die)?
Is the hidden stat on Ancient the +2 (meaning 2 extra face per die)?

Sorry to badger you, but before someone can decide if it's worth it to spend 35+ hours doing quests to upgrade a weapon, they really need to know what they'll actually be getting.

(FWIW... Ancient weapons vary in endurance, in multiples of 7%. If a weapon normally has 1000 endurance (i.e, from the blacksmith), the Ancient version would have 1070, 1140, 1210, etc.. endurance. This added endurance has no affect on the damage. Every no-stat ancient flam would do the same damage, no matter how much they varied in endurance.)

ding ding ding...I also don't think that the extra endurance adds damage on ancient weapons...And I KNOW for a FACT that sharp and righteous weapons all drop with the SAME amount of endurance...They don't have the varying endurance like ancient, but I've already explained this to Avour, and she says I'm wrong, so I've got no idea. I just know that I've never had a righteous or sharp weapon drop with random endurances (and yes, I know you have to repair them first to get them to the max endurance, but I've still never seen it, and I don't believe it.)

Rowechelon · Mon, February 08, 2010, 12:16 PM

So can two sharp weapons (same type and same endurance, because their endurance is always the same) actually deal different damage?

Sundrop · Mon, February 08, 2010, 12:25 PM

lol i honestly don't think so, but whatever

Richter · Mon, February 08, 2010, 01:58 PM

Well there's at least 2 stats behind the dice, and possibly three depending how the programming is set up. I've never seen the code or config files for weapons, so I don't know for sure. Here's what I mean. I'll use Flam dice on large monster as the example.

A Flam+3 LLF has as it's dice configuration: 2d13+3.
If you upgrade it twice with xstones, it becomes: 2d13 +3 +2.

Those are the two obvious additional stats (i.e., the +3 and the +2). The +3 is added in before the STR and Zerk multipliers are applied. The +2 is added last, after all multipliers have been factored in.

I have a Sharp Flam dropped by a demon with a +1 stat. Without any xstone upgrades, it is Sharp Flam +1. If I upgraded it twice with xstones, it would be Sharp Flam +1 +2.

So it's reasonable to assume that ALL weapons have the base dice and TWO additional stats afterwards. In the case of a normal blacksmith flam, or a flam dropped by a WW, the first additional stat is a zero, so it is not displayed, but in the programming it would almost certainly still exist. So is that first number the hidden stat? (Except that it's not hidden in all cases??)

Now, here's the other possibility...

Flam dice are 2d13 on large.
Sharp Flam dice are either 2d14 -OR - 2d(13+1).
Anc. Flam dice are either 2d15 -OR- 2d(13+2).

If the programming actually represents Sharp as (13+1) and Ancient as (13+2), then the +1 and the +2 could be the hidden stats. If this is the case, my demon-dropped Sharp Flam+1 upgraded (twice) with xstones would be:

2d(13+1) +1 + 2.

If this is how it works, then there are actually THREE stats, besides the base dice, the first one being always hidden, the second and third being hidden whenever they are not zero.

Now let's assume I used Copper Tokens to upgrade this demon flam.

Would it be:

2d(13+2) +1 + 2?

-OR-

2d(13+1) +2 +2?

The answer to that question makes a big difference in the potential damage the weapon does -- even moreso if you're considering 3 dice weapons. And this is why I asked the question in the first place, because it makes a big difference, and I really prefer to know what I'm getting before I pay for it.

Another consideration.... If the first case above is the right one, there is nothing visual about the upgrade. So if you ever wanted to trade it, the person buying it would just see a "normal" Sharp Flam+1+2. How would they know if it had had an extra upgrade done to it? However, if it's the second stat that gets upgraded, then they'd see in the trade window "Sharp Flam+2+2". So again, I think it's important to know what we should expect before we plunk down our tokens.

Sharp weapons and Righteous weapons ALWAYS have a standard endurance -- the same endurance as the Blacksmith models. ONLY Ancient have additional endurance, always in multiples of 7% of the base endurance. And I'll PROVE that endurance has no affect on damage to anybody interested in seeing for themselves.

Sundrop · Mon, February 08, 2010, 02:04 PM

I know that endurance doesn't have any effect on damage....But also, if you upgrade your sharp flame+1 from demon..it doesn't go to +1+2..it goes to +3, and it will be safe to +4. You are right about a flame+3 llf, though. It will upgrade to flame+3+3

Logicarn · Mon, February 08, 2010, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Sundrop

I know that endurance doesn't have any effect on damage....But also, if you upgrade your sharp flame+1 from demon..it doesn't go to +1+2..it goes to +3, and it will be safe to +4. You are right about a flame+3 llf, though. It will upgrade to flame+3+3

Not saying I doubt you...But really...a Flam+1 when using a X Stone will only become Flam+2 and not Flam +1+1??

Richter · Mon, February 08, 2010, 02:36 PM

I'll try it -- in the interest of science -- and let you know.

flowar · Mon, February 08, 2010, 02:48 PM

I cannot say for sure, but I think it would be flam +1 +1. Like, "Flamberge (LLF) +3", or whatever the name is, is the item name. So I don't think it has the normal flamberge dice in the config, but a different one. I think that's why it doesn't become +4 when you upgrade it. I guess they chose the easiest solution for this matter. I am 99.99% sure that a flam +1 would upgrade into a flam +1 +1 since "flam +1" is the item name and it just adds +x to the item name without checking what the item name is - I believe. All of this is just what I think - I couldn't be bothered testing it; I will leave that to Richter.

If that made sense to anyone of you, you deserve a medal.

Sundrop · Mon, February 08, 2010, 03:01 PM

Ok, so when +6 items were needed for medusa event...and people were manu'ing long swords +2, bc they were safe to +5..and only had to risk the one upgrade to +6...unless things have changed, it will become a +4 flame safely..and a flame+3llf will become +3+3

Richter · Mon, February 08, 2010, 03:10 PM

Trading Sharp Flam +2!!

Unless I upgraded the wrong Sharp Flam+1, you were right. So it was a bad example, but as you pointed out, the concept still stands, Flam+3 being an example. BH would be, too. They are 3d9+2 in the Blacksmith. So they can become 3d9+2+3 with xstones. And the Sharp version of the same would be either 3d(9+1)+2+3 -OR- 3d10+2+3. Is the "+1" the hidden stat? Or is it the "+2"? Or the "+3"? Or something else entirely??

Enquiring minds want to know.....

Sundrop · Wed, February 10, 2010, 11:22 AM

Hellloooo?

Avour · Wed, February 10, 2010, 06:33 PM

If you have a conversation on the forums, especially over the weekend don't get all upset if I'm not camping the forums pressing F5 for an answer. There isn't a reason to "hello?".

Drew, I also didn't say that you were wrong I said that I was 90% positive. If you look on the website at the description of the event I edited it shortly after that conversation to reflect the testing. I've currently got a +1 and a +15 of all 3 different swords and the ancient sword shows an increase in endurance. This is also the case when people have complained in the past about their ancient weapons having more endurance when they had been replaced.

The hidden stat increases the damage by +1 each step. I believe that it adds that damage on at the end similar to the xelima stone upgrading. If people have the 7 anniversary copper and want to get it as an upgrade to test for a week then they can, if they want to keep it they can other wise they can exchange it for something else. Having used a BH Ancient rep hammer that had a hidden stat of 15 along side some one using an identical BH, the damage increase was pretty significant. If you don't want to and aren't sure, don't do it, if you've got the coppers and want to have a see for yourself, make a ticket to claim the upgrade. If you don't like it and want to change it you can have a week to do it from the time your ticket being closed.